Posts by Doug Mason

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Thanks for your thoughts. I especially appreciate the dates you give for those documents. The date of 65-80 for the earliest Gospel ["Mark" - who was not a disciple] is decades after the Jesus-event. Given that according to tradition Paul died in 64 CE, your list shows which writings are incorrectlly attributed to him. I did not see 2 Peter but since it followed Jude, that would correspond with the generally accepted date of mid to late 2nd century.

Your dates for the writings of the Johannine community likewise show the lateness in the evolution of their thinking and experience. The Johannine writings reflect the way they (the "beloved disciple") were handled by the mainstream Judaeo-Christian community and their points of difference.

Acts of the Apostles is so discredited as a reliable source of information that many scholars explicitly state that they will not use it in their deliberations. As your list shows, the earliest iteration was in the mid 80s, with the current version comng from about 125 CE. Many see Luke/Acts as a deliberate response to the efectiveness of Marcion. There were several books of Acts but these are not included in your listing.

So who did Jesus pay the ransom to? The grave? Death?

John 6 only required belief in Jesus to have eternal life (cf 1 john 5:10-12). Nothing said about the need for anything more. John 10:17 only says he is going to die and get his life back. It does not state that this was needed for a person's salvation.

Why does God need people to murder his son before he is able to forgive? Why does Jesus need to plead with God?

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Thanks Perry,

I will keep your thoughts in my reference material.

If as you say Jesus said that a person only needed to believe in him, he is not saying "Believe that I am going to be killed and raised from the dead". Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the synoptists speak of obtaining salvation and eternal life in terms of obedience and good works (sheep-goats, etc.). Do the Gospel writers relate salvation to Jesus' resurrection?

I read the Josh McDowell material on the resurrection, which I will also store. This does not mean I agree with his views - which he is fully entitled to - but to show me the views of a potential reader.

It just so happens that in my research I am about to plough through the book, "The Trouble With Resurrection". I am fully aware that it is published by Polebrook Press.

Regarding the Gospels and resurrection, I note the timing of when each gospel was produced by a community and the marked differences between them in their narration of the resurrection event. Paul was the earliest chronologically. Neither he nor any of the Gospel writers had either seen or heard Jesus, and they wrote decades after the "Jesus-event", relying on oral tradition - not facts.

I have read many books, I have lived through a period as an intense Christian (giving the occasional sermon from the pulpit), and I can only judge in accordance with living for 76 years. The experience of each of us is unique and we can only judge what is practical in light of that.

There is no need for a Creator for reason and logic to exist, but if that is your view, I respect your right to hold it.

Yes, this is a daunting task. I will be briefly touching across the millennia looking objectively at what people were saying, hopefully without making judgments. There will be many distracting paths that I could follow.

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Perry,

I believe there is power in doubting, questioning.

I will want the reader to look objectively at the evidence that is available and to question themselves.

What does salvation mean to them? Is it a myth? Why should I accept these opinions? Do I want to live forever and ever? Which version of salvation, is acceptable, if any? Who was responsible for formulating these ideas?

I spend some time detailing the ceremony involved with Yom Kippur. I did that because it is a foundation of Paul's concepts. In turn, his ideas are built on in later centuries and millennia.

Am I comfortable that my concepts emanate from Yom Kippur?

All subsequent generations build on the previous ideas, with each introducing changes, evolutions. Today's ideas are but a stage, neither the original nor any of the past's subsequent stages, nor necessarily that of future generations.

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Crazyguy, You made a very valid point when you asked me why am I pursuing this. You forced me to consider the model sitting in the rear recesses of my mind.

My intention is to start with the earliest writings (J, E, and P) then move forwards to the neo-Babylonian era (D, DH, Jer, Eze, Second Isaiah), and so on, moving towards the present day through Paul, etc., etc. With that in mind, and with your question, I have drafted a very rough preliminary outline of the model in my mind.

So, for you: http://www.jwstudies.com/Preliminary_conceptual_model.png

You pointed me back to the sources of the Hebrew's sanctuary, suggesting Egyptian influences. There is merit in showing the way that the Hebrews borrowed their ideas from their neighbours, and I shall keep that in mind.

There are so many paths I could tread, but I want to steer as simplistic and objective pathway as possible. I want to see "what" and "how", but very little of "why".

I am hoping that the quotations I provide stimulate people to purchase these books and see what other ideas can be gained.

There are many doubts about the origins of these writings. Apart from Paul's letters, we do not know who any of the writers were (and I am including the OT and the NT), nor do we know who the editors (redactors) were. I shall briefly touch on this.

As with everything else I hope to include, I wish to stimulate personal research and that each person develops their own ideas, whether they agree with me or not.

I hope that another outcome will be a recognition of the power that mythology and legend holds.

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Hi Crazyguy,

I genuinely thank you for the question. I need to hear thoughts like yours.

My purpose is to understand. The discipline of writing forces me to think, to argue with myself, and to rethink. I suspect that my desire is for people to see that today's soteriology is just one of a series of ideas that have undergone marked changes over time. How many are aware of the roles that Augustine and Anselm have played in shaping contemporary soteriology?

Perhaps this will cause some ask why they accept any version. So I see this as having a potentially practical outcome and ask: Why accept mythology?

The Egyptians were not the only source for the Hebrews. The Hebrews borrowed their ideas, myths, and even their gods -- including Yahweh -- from all of their surroundng neighbours. All those nations believed everything they saw was directly linked to their gods, and the Hebrews' stories reflect this.

The Hebrews were the hill-dwelling Canaanites; the poor cousins of their more prosperous Canaanites of the plains. The stories they wrote are not historical records in the sense that we understand. Writing history at that time had no precedent. Their purpose in writing -- and subsequent editing and re-editing -- was to influence their own contemporary community.

Thank you,

Doug

26

Does Paul preach a fundamentally different religion than Jesus?

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

controversy has arisen regarding jesus versus paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of jesus and paul.1 jesus preached the kingdom of heaven.

paul did not.

paul preached justification by faith alone.

Doug Mason

Paul, who is the chronologically the earliest NT writer, does not write about Jesus' life, preaching or teachings. Paul focused on one event - Jesus' resurrection, and hence the meanings Paul associated with Jesus' death.

Doug

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Doug Mason

Hi,

I have assigned myself a probably impossible task: I want to see if I can pick out the highlights of the evolution of Judaeo/Christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

I am making available the First Draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf

My purpose in providing this material is to seek your criticisms, comments and advice.

Thanks,

Doug

20

Paul did not belittle women

by Doug Mason in

i note the recent post that quoted 1 timothy 2:11-12 and colossians 1:23 which place women at a level that is lower to men.

the poster accused paul of this mysoginy, but that is not correct.. 1 timothy, 2 timothy, titus, colossians, ephesians and hebrews were written after paul's death.. paul was not a mysoginist; he made full use of women in leadership roles.

he wrote that in god's sight there is neither male nor female, for all are one in god's sight.. doug.

Doug Mason

Take care when you say "the Bible is inspired". It might only represent what you wish for or what you believe God "should have" done.

It is illogical to use any words from within the texts to attempt to show that the Bible is "inspired", That is pure circular reasoning.

Further, the "Bible" did not exist until the 4th century at the earliest. Even then the decision was not and is not unanimously agreed on. Only the Catholic Church ever voted on the Canon (list of books), which it did in the 15th century. Protestants rely on Tradition.

The contents too are disagreed on. Take for example the text of the NT, where arguments abound on whether the Textus Receptus or Westcott-Hort should be accepted (throw in Aland's Nestle text).

The canons (list of books) of the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches differ - and there are other canons in use today. The Canons of the Jewish Bible (Tanakh) differs from the Catholic and Protestant versions. Add to that the differences in the texts between the Masoretic Text (MT) and the various iterations of the LXX plus that of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I have listed above the writings that are widely accepted as not being written by Paul. The letters to the Corinthians are readily accepted as genuinely by him. 2 Corinthians (at least) is an edited compilation of several letters.

Doug

20

Paul did not belittle women

by Doug Mason in

i note the recent post that quoted 1 timothy 2:11-12 and colossians 1:23 which place women at a level that is lower to men.

the poster accused paul of this mysoginy, but that is not correct.. 1 timothy, 2 timothy, titus, colossians, ephesians and hebrews were written after paul's death.. paul was not a mysoginist; he made full use of women in leadership roles.

he wrote that in god's sight there is neither male nor female, for all are one in god's sight.. doug.

Doug Mason

Certainly there were and are mysoginists in religion. I am pointing out that Paul must not be blamed for something he was not responsible for.

These writings I listed were written decades after Paul's death. He died in 64 CE and these were written about 20 to 30 years later, when the movement started to address formal issues.

I would also be cautious about claiming definitely what Jesus actually did say and did not say. Again this is a subject mired in controversy. The earliest Gospel -- Mark -- was written a few years after Paul's death, Matthew another decade later along with John, while the present form of Luke is from the early 2nd century.

This means that not one of the Gospel writers either saw or heard Jesus. They worked from Tradition and the memory of others - and influenced by Paul. I take the position that each Gospel represents what that particular community believed.

All of these words, including Paul's, are the opinions of each separate group that claimed allegiance to Jesus (and I include the Gospel of Thomas among them).

Late in the 2nd century they started to use the term "Christian".

I am asked who wrote those pseudo-Paul writings. I do not know. Neither do I know who wrote 2 Peter, which was written about 100 years after his death. I wonder if we know anything about what Peter thought and taught. (Acts is recognised as being a religious novel, written for contemporary religio-political purposes.)

Doug

20

Paul did not belittle women

by Doug Mason in

i note the recent post that quoted 1 timothy 2:11-12 and colossians 1:23 which place women at a level that is lower to men.

the poster accused paul of this mysoginy, but that is not correct.. 1 timothy, 2 timothy, titus, colossians, ephesians and hebrews were written after paul's death.. paul was not a mysoginist; he made full use of women in leadership roles.

he wrote that in god's sight there is neither male nor female, for all are one in god's sight.. doug.

Doug Mason

I note the recent post that quoted 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and Colossians 1:23 which place women at a level that is lower to men. The poster accused Paul of this mysoginy, but that is not correct.

1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Colossians, Ephesians and Hebrews were written after Paul's death.

Paul was not a mysoginist; he made full use of women in leadership roles. He wrote that in God's sight there is neither male nor female, for all are one in God's sight.

Doug